Soldera Markets #8: Estonia's Climate Tech Ecosystem

Transcript of the episode's discussion between Oliver Bonallack, Kevin Lu, and Stenver Jerkku [00:00:03] Hey, [00:00:03] everyone, [00:00:04] and welcome back to the Soldera Markets podcast, [00:00:06] where we predominantly talk about guarantees of origin and renewable energy credit. [00:00:10] But today, [00:00:11] we are joined by Kevin Liu, [00:00:12] who's doing his Fulbright scholarship in Tallinn in Estonia, [00:00:16] and he's investigating the climate tech ecosystem [00:00:19] in Estonia so we thought it would be a great opportunity to showcase what we're [00:00:22] doing here at Soldera whilst having a more interactive conversation about climate [00:00:27] trends in Europe and Estonia more generally so Kevin it's really it's really nice [00:00:31] to have you on the show and yeah over to you to just do a little bit of an [00:00:34] introduction about yourself and how you're finding Estonia so far. [00:00:38] Yeah, of course. [00:00:39] Thank you so much for having me here today. [00:00:41] So as Ali mentioned, [00:00:42] I'm a Fulbright Scholar and researcher at the Tallinn University of Technology [00:00:46] right now. [00:00:46] I actually moved from San Francisco to Tallinn here over the last year. [00:00:50] And I've been here since September. [00:00:52] And it's been a really awesome experience because [00:00:55] I just learned so much about kind of the comprehensive climate, clean tech ecosystem here. [00:00:59] And there's so many interesting developments, [00:01:01] not even just from like the founder side, [00:01:02] but also from the investment side and also the policy side as well in terms of like [00:01:06] how we can construct a very comprehensive climate tech ecosystem. [00:01:10] Awesome. [00:01:10] So why do you choose Estonia more? [00:01:13] You know, was that your initial focus? [00:01:14] Did you always want to choose Estonia or how did that work out? [00:01:17] It was such a funny story because I had initially I knew about Estonia in terms of [00:01:21] like their Estonia programs and how digital society is. [00:01:25] And I think that's a narrative that's really commonly kind of put out there in the ecosystem. [00:01:29] especially among startups and founders and entrepreneurs. [00:01:33] But I knew for myself that, [00:01:34] at least in Asaf, [00:01:35] when I was working over there, [00:01:36] I was really heavily focused in on new clean tech developments over there, [00:01:41] working with a lot of different founders over there in that space. [00:01:43] And so I wanted to kind of take that interest and knowledge over to Estonia. [00:01:47] And I think there's a really interesting... [00:01:49] transition period going on right now where it's not just about those digital IT [00:01:53] solutions that so many different founders were working on in the past. [00:01:56] But now there's a lot of spinoffs and scientific breakthroughs and like labs at universities. [00:02:00] And those are becoming kind of this predominant force of clean tech startups that [00:02:05] redeveloped now. [00:02:06] So that's something that I've wanted to explore deeper. [00:02:09] And that's kind of like what I'm focusing in now. [00:02:12] Yeah, I'll say a quick word about myself as well. [00:02:14] I'm Stan Wirth, [00:02:15] founder and CEO of Soldera, [00:02:17] here to support renewable energy producers, [00:02:20] minimize their compliance costs and maximize their revenue on renewable energy. [00:02:25] Very excited to have you here, [00:02:27] Kevin, [00:02:27] and hear more about your journey and, [00:02:30] you know, [00:02:30] happy to answer about my journey as well, [00:02:31] because you had a lot of questions for both me and Oli, [00:02:34] right? [00:02:34] Yes, of course. [00:02:35] Yeah. [00:02:36] So, [00:02:36] I mean, [00:02:36] a lot of like these interviews I'm conducting right now with founders and [00:02:40] entrepreneurs in Estonia, [00:02:40] they're really focused in on like not only just like their own founder journey, [00:02:44] but also what they've been noticing in the space as well. [00:02:46] And so I'm trying to identify through these interviews, [00:02:48] like, [00:02:49] you know, [00:02:49] how we can better support climate entrepreneurs like you in terms of like what [00:02:53] you're building and how we can create better models and support mechanisms to help [00:02:56] accelerate this kind of growth. [00:02:58] So, I mean, obviously, you know, we've had context on like, you know, what Sildera is. [00:03:02] I've looked through the website as well, [00:03:03] but we'd love to just kind of learn just generally like what's the founding story [00:03:06] behind the company and how did you kind of like choose to construct your founding [00:03:11] team and all that kind of good stuff. [00:03:12] When we talk about my background, I'm a serial entrepreneur. [00:03:17] I founded many companies. [00:03:18] I have a technical background as well. [00:03:20] And so I've been, for example, part of Glia, which is a New York-based enterprise SaaS business. [00:03:25] It's a billion-dollar company. [00:03:26] But after Glia, [00:03:27] when I led the software engineering team there, [00:03:30] around Series B, [00:03:31] I left and founded my own company called Diagonon, [00:03:34] which is a leading climate tech company in Central Eastern Europe. [00:03:37] They raised close to like 30 million euros by now. [00:03:40] And over there, [00:03:41] I really got into the environment narrative and angle like, [00:03:45] because in Neagronom, [00:03:46] it was all about like, [00:03:47] how can we secure our soils, [00:03:49] help farmers become regenerative, [00:03:52] do better, [00:03:52] give them better overview, [00:03:53] make our food better and so on. [00:03:55] Well, one thing led to another. [00:03:57] And very soon within Neagronom, I grew to be from CTO to be the innovation lead. [00:04:02] Every new product line it ever did was spearheaded by me. [00:04:06] And my now co-founder, Al. [00:04:08] I met Al actually during E-Argonome. [00:04:11] I had heard that he's really good at like AI and data science. [00:04:17] So I met him in a cafe. [00:04:19] I sat down next to him and I asked him like, [00:04:22] hey, [00:04:22] can you explain to me how neural networks work? [00:04:25] Well, he opened up a napkin, started drawing neural network paths. [00:04:29] I hired him on the spot, best hire I ever made. [00:04:32] He was the best product manager in eAgronom. [00:04:35] And at some point inside eAgronom, [00:04:37] we together created SolidWorld, [00:04:39] which was a carbon-ready trading platform. [00:04:42] Initially, it was supposed to focus on helping eAgronom solve a very specific problem. [00:04:48] But we kind of spun it out and took it way beyond that and wanted to create the [00:04:52] carbon exchange. [00:04:54] When the carbon markets had a big downturn roughly three or four years ago, [00:05:00] then we started looking at what we're doing. [00:05:03] We've been growing fast. [00:05:05] We had a lot of facets on our platform, multiple millions of dollars running, but the [00:05:10] space itself had a lot of issues, the voluntary carbon space. [00:05:14] And eventually we were like, [00:05:16] okay, [00:05:16] we can create a bootstab business here, [00:05:19] but we wanted to focus on venture impact because both me and I want to make sure [00:05:23] that we do something that really has a huge impact. [00:05:26] So we made the hard decision and decided to pivot. [00:05:30] We looked through every environmental asset that was out there. [00:05:34] You know, [00:05:34] we've been in with Diagnome and with SolidWeld in environmental assets for 10 years now. [00:05:39] So we see pretty much everything there. [00:05:41] And then our eyes stopped on renewable energy credits or guarantees of origin, [00:05:47] as they're called in Europe. [00:05:48] And we initially thought that this looks interesting because the market is big. [00:05:53] It's regulated. [00:05:54] There's no like greenwashing issues and we can reuse our technology there. [00:05:59] Well, we didn't end up reusing any technology, to be honest. [00:06:02] But we did reuse the network, [00:06:05] the know-how, [00:06:05] the knowledge, [00:06:06] and we built a completely new technology. [00:06:08] And that's how Soldera got started. [00:06:11] It's been an amazing journey since then. [00:06:12] We already have more than 2,500 power plants we manage in a year. [00:06:18] And we've grown to 10 people. [00:06:20] We've done venture rounds. [00:06:21] Yeah. [00:06:23] got it yeah and so i'm very curious i think of something i've noticed when i was [00:06:26] talking with a lot of estonian founders here is the fact that they often have to [00:06:29] think very internationally because you know estonia is a generally smaller market [00:06:33] so when you were kind of identifying some of those like main customers or users how [00:06:38] did you kind of approach the way that you were able to identify both the problem [00:06:42] and were you thinking about the international growth aspect of like the market [00:06:47] already like or were you thinking more so like okay let's start off on estonia [00:06:51] And then maybe kind of like look towards like bigger visions beyond that. [00:06:55] So I don't know how it is for you, [00:06:56] Kevin and Ollie, [00:06:57] but in UK and US, [00:06:58] but in Estonia, [00:06:59] there's a saying that you don't get rich in Estonia. [00:07:02] So day one, [00:07:03] when you start building something, [00:07:05] you're thinking immediately, [00:07:06] like, [00:07:06] how can I make this global? [00:07:08] If you can't, [00:07:09] then it's, [00:07:09] you know, [00:07:10] not worth doing, [00:07:11] especially in software business, [00:07:12] which is usually all about scale. [00:07:14] Unless you're solving a very niche problem and you just want to build a lifestyle business, [00:07:18] then you have to think day one, [00:07:21] how it looks like globally. [00:07:23] There's only a million Estonians. [00:07:24] There's only so much they can do. [00:07:27] Anything you build inside Estonia is going to be very limited by the tiny Estonian [00:07:32] market as it is. [00:07:33] Day one, global, that's the only way how to do it. [00:07:36] And it's all about scale and figuring out what's the business model that can [00:07:40] actually have a big global impact. [00:07:42] Also, the nature of Guarantees of Origin being an international system, right? [00:07:47] And with EECS geos in Europe being portable across different geographies, [00:07:51] it really doesn't make sense to only stay in one country. [00:07:54] And, [00:07:55] you know, [00:07:55] you would have built out the system for Estonia and then you would have had a lot [00:07:58] of free time on your hands, [00:07:59] right? [00:07:59] So, yeah, I think international was definitely the way to go. [00:08:02] Yeah, that makes sense. [00:08:03] That makes sense for sure. [00:08:04] And I think it's always very fascinating, [00:08:06] also inspiring to see how people in Estonia just kind of have to think about that [00:08:10] in a way. [00:08:11] But I think because of that, [00:08:12] that's also something that, [00:08:13] you know, [00:08:13] investors that I've talked with, [00:08:15] they're like, [00:08:15] that's something I actually appreciate about Estonian founders is the fact that [00:08:18] they get the ability to just think internationally from the ground up. [00:08:21] And it's like, there's not even a question about it. [00:08:23] It's already included in the pitches, the decks, like the product roadmap. [00:08:27] It's actually been funny. [00:08:28] I've spoken with some other founders and investors in Poland and Japan and so on. [00:08:34] And they often say that the biggest issue they find is that most of the local [00:08:37] founders want to stay local. [00:08:40] Because the market is big enough that you can build a successful business just [00:08:44] being in your own country. [00:08:45] Yeah. [00:08:46] When you do venture investing, [00:08:47] you want to look for global businesses, [00:08:49] businesses that can scale globally. [00:08:51] And Estonians' tiny size is both a blessing and a curse in this case, right? [00:08:55] Because it really forces us to go outside and figure out, [00:08:59] can I make this into a bigger thing than just an Estonians? [00:09:02] Yeah, that makes sense. [00:09:03] And like, [00:09:04] can you tell me a little bit more about that fundraising journey that you've gone [00:09:06] through so far since like, [00:09:08] the conception of Solidera and then being able to kind of like navigate through [00:09:12] that like fundraising cycle? [00:09:13] Like, [00:09:14] what are some of the things that you've kind of encountered while going on this [00:09:18] fundraising journey? [00:09:19] I've raised a lot of capital throughout [00:09:21] many different fundraising companies and journeys, right? [00:09:24] So like overall the ventures that I've been part of, [00:09:27] like I've raised more than 30 million euros and I've also been part of like Clia [00:09:34] and so on, [00:09:34] which have also raised tons of money. [00:09:37] So I have seen the journey repeatedly. [00:09:39] I've spoken with probably... [00:09:42] over a thousand venture capitalists at this point. [00:09:44] So over all the 10 years, [00:09:47] I think it's pretty well known what makes for a good fundraising story and [00:09:51] narrative and how to approach this. [00:09:53] What I do see is a lot of newer founders for some reason don't apply these lessons. [00:09:57] But I mean, in the internet, all the [00:10:00] big important things are written out right and in general like if you have an [00:10:04] ambitious plan a grave traction it's not hard to raise money even in the current [00:10:10] environment we for example took us five weeks to go from zero to closing term [00:10:16] sheets and completely oversubscribed so like and having to choose like who's going [00:10:20] to be like the best partner for us [00:10:22] So like the fundraising journey and the way you do like venture capital fundraising [00:10:28] is always like, [00:10:29] I think a CEO should do it. [00:10:30] You can't outsource it, especially in an early stage venture firm. [00:10:34] You have to get your story straight. [00:10:35] You must have a good story and narrative. [00:10:38] It has to be simple and high level. [00:10:41] And at the same time, [00:10:42] you need to be, [00:10:43] it needs to be resilient enough that you can answer any questions that come up and [00:10:48] you just need to go through a lot of numbers, [00:10:50] you know, [00:10:51] and not stay only in raising in Estonia. [00:10:53] Like I remember very early on when we just started eAgronome, [00:10:58] then we went to investors and this was like 10 years ago. [00:11:02] And we asked them like, what's the valuation of eAgronome? [00:11:05] And they told us 6 million. [00:11:07] Then we went to UK, did a roadshow and Sweden and Germany and so on. [00:11:14] and came back with the term sheet of 10 million. [00:11:18] And suddenly all Estonian investors said the valuation is 10 million. [00:11:21] It's really like fundraising and investment. [00:11:23] Like you got a great competition for your company. [00:11:26] It's honestly as simple as that because investors are looking for good deals. [00:11:31] That's their business, right? [00:11:32] Yeah. [00:11:33] Do you think that within Estonia, [00:11:35] so you've seen, [00:11:36] you've seen this narrative, [00:11:37] you've seen the narrative, [00:11:38] common narratives that you have to kind of navigate when fundraising in Estonia. [00:11:41] And you also had to, [00:11:42] you know, [00:11:43] build, [00:11:43] you've worked on multiple different kinds of like clean tech companies here. [00:11:47] What are some advice that you might have for founders who now want to build in this [00:11:52] space in Estonia? [00:11:53] Also, like when they have to navigate the fundraising cycle here? [00:11:56] I don't know if there is any unique advice I will give. [00:12:01] The general startup advice still applies, right? [00:12:04] Find a niche, first of all, that is on tap validate the niche. [00:12:11] Make sure it's actually a venture niche. [00:12:14] That's very important. [00:12:15] Make the decision if you actually want to raise venture capital. [00:12:19] That's extremely important. [00:12:21] You shouldn't always raise money. [00:12:23] In fact, most of the time you shouldn't raise money. [00:12:26] Taking venture capital is a double-edged sword. [00:12:29] Suddenly you have a clock ticking on your back. [00:12:32] And at the same time, [00:12:34] as soon as you take money, [00:12:35] you have five years to deliver a billion dollar business. [00:12:38] That's the expectation that you're given. [00:12:41] And that's what investors want from you. [00:12:43] You lose control of your company. [00:12:45] You don't have absolute authority anymore what's going on. [00:12:48] You need to do reporting. [00:12:49] You need to build shareholder relationships. [00:12:52] And so you take on a lot of responsibility by taking venture capital. [00:12:57] And while it may sound glamorous and fancy, there's absolutely downsides for it. [00:13:03] So that's the most important decision you can make. [00:13:06] As soon as you sell away part of your company, [00:13:08] it's a completely different game than just owning your own business. [00:13:12] But if you do decide to go the venture route or you decide not to, [00:13:16] I mean, [00:13:17] ultimately what matters is building a good business. [00:13:19] That's the most important part. [00:13:21] You deciding whether to take venture capital or not should only be honestly [00:13:26] dictated by one question. [00:13:28] Can you build a billion dollar business within the next five years? [00:13:32] If the answer is yes, then maybe venture capital can help you. [00:13:37] If the answer is no, then maybe you shouldn't take investment money. [00:13:41] Yeah, that makes sense. [00:13:42] It seems like, [00:13:42] you know, [00:13:43] among many different, [00:13:44] not even just in Australia, [00:13:45] but like climate tech companies around the world, [00:13:48] like the way to navigate the fundraising cycle is like any other traditional company. [00:13:51] It's always as kind of like the same, essentially the same blueprint. [00:13:54] And you still have to, [00:13:55] you know, [00:13:56] even though you're doing positive, [00:13:57] amazing impact for the world, [00:13:58] you still have to be able to kind of show investors, [00:14:02] yeah, [00:14:02] like this is something that will also give you like those financial returns as well. [00:14:05] maybe for people who are looking to raise, [00:14:08] because obviously your initial question was, [00:14:09] what advice would you give? [00:14:11] I think some great insight would be how to choose the most strategic venture partner, right? [00:14:16] Because closing around within five weeks with oversubscription interests, [00:14:20] you obviously have to decide between different partners, [00:14:23] right? [00:14:23] What were you looking for to really add value to your mission, right? [00:14:27] There's no one answer fits all here. [00:14:29] Every business is different and you got to find what's useful for your business. [00:14:35] You know, that's fundamentally what entrepreneurship and businesses are. [00:14:39] It's finding new niches that nobody has tapped into and exploiting them and [00:14:45] bringing solutions that bring value there. [00:14:47] That's basically the entire hallmark of entrepreneurship. [00:14:51] And you can't like [00:14:52] fit it into a box, right? [00:14:54] I can't really answer that because you have to figure it out as a CEO of your own company, [00:15:00] like what sort of partner brings value to you. [00:15:03] If you're a more traditional business with physical foods and supply chains, [00:15:09] you maybe need a partner that opens up like critical doors for you and critical [00:15:14] supply chain options for you. [00:15:16] And you maybe need like a strategic partner. [00:15:18] If you're simply super fast-growing software tech business, [00:15:23] then maybe you just need somebody who has a good name and can help you reach the [00:15:28] next stage. [00:15:29] In our specific case, [00:15:31] we really wanted to have somebody who has entrepreneurial background and can help [00:15:36] us navigate and find quickest growth paths possible. [00:15:40] It ultimately comes down to what your business is, [00:15:42] and there's no one-size-fits-all answer over here, [00:15:45] so... [00:15:45] I was talking recently to a partner of a fund. [00:15:49] They have a very dispersed model, so they write lots of very small checks. [00:15:52] And he was talking about the benefits and disadvantages of that. [00:15:55] One being that if a round is heavily subscribed, [00:15:58] you can kind of tag on to the end and get involved because it's not a lot of money. [00:16:02] But also maybe Stenber, you can comment on this. [00:16:05] Founders are kind of a little bit more wary when it comes to smaller checks because [00:16:09] they want the sort of bigger, [00:16:11] like when they set a minimum ticket, [00:16:12] they want somebody who can actually apply themselves, [00:16:15] bring something more than just capital, [00:16:17] you know, [00:16:18] give access to network as well. [00:16:19] Right. [00:16:19] And I think that's maybe some of the thought process that you went through. [00:16:23] Yeah, [00:16:23] to be, [00:16:24] you know, [00:16:25] completely honest, [00:16:26] often like it really depends on what type of a business you are in. [00:16:30] If you're in like B2B SaaS business, [00:16:32] having a right investor with the right connections can help you open up your right [00:16:38] doors and really push you to the next level. [00:16:40] At the same time, like let's say you're a B2C SaaS business. [00:16:45] Or even if you're a B2B SaaS business, [00:16:47] like often the network of the investor gets exhausted quite fast, [00:16:53] actually. [00:16:54] There's like a limited amount of real support to help over there. [00:16:58] And it's more important. [00:17:00] In my opinion, that they have a strong name. [00:17:03] They can help in the next fundraising round. [00:17:05] That's very important. [00:17:07] And also that they're a partner for you. [00:17:11] So, [00:17:11] you know, [00:17:12] as you go through the daily struggles of growing your company, [00:17:15] there's going to be struggles like it's inevitable. [00:17:18] That's what every... [00:17:19] startup is, you know, you constantly have like this roller coaster. [00:17:24] They're the type of investor who's supportive and not destructive in that journey. [00:17:28] And I think those are like really, really important things. [00:17:32] Our investor actually, [00:17:33] I think the way he worded it is that he wants his founders basically be in a room [00:17:38] where even if they're like [00:17:40] freezing, they can still breathe. [00:17:42] So even if it seems like the whole world around them is falling apart, [00:17:46] they can still breathe and discuss things and make sure that you have productive [00:17:52] conversations on how to take the company forward and make sure it goes in the right direction. [00:17:57] Can you tell me a little bit more about maybe some of those challenges that you've [00:18:00] encountered when building the product itself? [00:18:03] Because I think something that's also been very fascinating is the fact that [00:18:06] Soldera is more on the software side, [00:18:07] right? [00:18:08] It's really software focused, [00:18:09] AI and software, [00:18:10] but it really still focuses on engaging with real people's lives in terms of [00:18:14] infrastructure and also development of infrastructure around multiple different markets. [00:18:19] And I think something that's super fascinating is the fact that, [00:18:22] you know, [00:18:23] in the climate tech realm in Estonia, [00:18:24] there is there's software, [00:18:26] there's hardware, [00:18:27] and then there's like software enabled hardware or like come something in more of [00:18:30] that gray area. [00:18:31] So can you tell me a little bit more about kind of maybe the more technical [00:18:34] challenges that you might have encountered when building Soldera as a company? [00:18:37] Yeah. [00:18:38] Well, [00:18:38] the key points I'd actually like go to take a few years back, [00:18:42] like from my previous company. [00:18:43] And this is really when me and Al spun out from eAgronome to SolidWeld. [00:18:47] The biggest key lesson for us was, honestly, was that focus is important. [00:18:54] Like so easy to get pulled into 10 directions because your clients are asking a [00:19:01] million features and you have a million ideas what to do. [00:19:04] And as you get deeper, you see so many opportunities. [00:19:08] And what's important is to stay focused, [00:19:10] like really figure out like what's your tip of the spear, [00:19:14] the most highest impact, [00:19:16] important activities, [00:19:18] and just laser focus on that. [00:19:20] Every additional feature is going to make it exponentially more complex because it [00:19:26] has more connections in the background, [00:19:28] how everything pulls together. [00:19:30] And eventually, the more complicated your product becomes, the slower your development comes. [00:19:37] Because of that, it's better to even say no to some opportunities. [00:19:41] It's often better to say no to some opportunities [00:19:45] Try to grab every opportunity because like you want to make sure that the time and [00:19:50] effort you do booked into development really hits the spots and staying focused on [00:19:57] that and rather being 10 times better in one thing than being like 50% better in 10 things. [00:20:04] That's not going to move the needle if you're just slightly better than the existing solutions. [00:20:09] But you're actually not the best in anything. [00:20:12] You really want to be best in one thing and you want to focus all our effort on that. [00:20:16] And that has to be the part where you can basically make the most impact with your business. [00:20:21] I think that totally makes sense when you're trying to navigate building the [00:20:24] product that you're now doing. [00:20:26] But do you think there's anything... [00:20:28] different when you're building software and AI in the climate tech space. [00:20:32] You can do anything significantly, any specific nuances that you have to navigate. [00:20:37] Maybe especially if it relates to understanding the policy landscape, [00:20:42] understanding global landscapes in terms of how different countries are navigating [00:20:47] clean energy. [00:20:47] One of the big differences is that it's often expected for you to be perfect. [00:20:52] Because like in climate and policy, [00:20:56] if you don't have a perfect solution, [00:20:58] everybody says it's greenwashing. [00:21:01] So that's sort of something to be just aware of. [00:21:05] And as a technical challenge, [00:21:06] that just reinforces my point of be very focused on what you do best. [00:21:11] because like you can't be best at everything and if you need to choose one thing to [00:21:15] be perfect within then you know make sure you have that very very well covered but [00:21:20] like when it comes to like other technical challenges like code or whatever i i [00:21:24] don't think there's anything like that special or different in clean tech that [00:21:29] makes it more technically complex it's more a lot more on business side challenges [00:21:35] Yeah, that makes sense. [00:21:36] There's a lot of more social implications involved in like what you're building now. [00:21:40] And it seems like the ability or kind of giving yourself grace in terms of knowing [00:21:45] that it won't be perfect on the first try, [00:21:47] and that it's okay to, [00:21:49] you know, [00:21:49] like, [00:21:49] make a couple of mistakes, [00:21:50] but to learn along the way. [00:21:51] That's how you kind of iterate your product. [00:21:53] I mean, yeah, that's like building a startup. [00:21:54] It's like never going to be perfect on the first try. [00:21:56] But I think it's harder to do that in the climate tech space, because [00:21:59] it's people expect it to be so like right on the dot because if you're selling a [00:22:04] product as well and you expect it to be like super super perfect because it's [00:22:08] something to do with sustainability i think we need to be able to kind of break [00:22:11] down that mindset of like oh we need this asap like right now or else it's an [00:22:16] absolute failure and you'll never be able to recover from that ever again but we [00:22:20] have to be able to kind of just say you know it's okay like we're learning as we're [00:22:23] going [00:22:24] Exactly. [00:22:24] And there's a lot of grants and government board schemes when you're in clean tech [00:22:28] or climate tech. [00:22:29] So you can actually take a lot of advantage from these, [00:22:32] which can maybe even help you avoid raising venture capital. [00:22:36] These are not like, you know, technical challenges. [00:22:38] They're all like business challenges and... [00:22:40] And any compliance reporting that comes with it is just, you know, cost of doing business. [00:22:46] What do you think for Soldera? [00:22:48] Did Soldera use any of those specific support mechanisms in Estonia? [00:22:52] And if so, [00:22:53] maybe what were some of the most helpful ones for your company in terms of scaling [00:22:58] and growing the business? [00:23:00] Actually, [00:23:00] a bit tying into the previous question and topic, [00:23:03] then one thing I do think is that because sustainability and cleantech has a lot of [00:23:09] compliance issues, [00:23:11] it's sort of like the perfect use case for LLMs and AI, [00:23:14] because LLMs and AI are really good at just filling out all this bureaucratic paperwork. [00:23:19] So that's actually something to keep in mind that we have sort of calculated. [00:23:25] We currently are roughly around 10 people, [00:23:27] but like if we had to hire all the people to take care of all the work we've [00:23:32] automated with AI, [00:23:33] we probably need like 20 to 30 people right now. [00:23:37] So we have this saying that we have like 10 full-time people, [00:23:41] but 200 AI agents basically doing everything in the background. [00:23:44] So that's basically like this industry really benefits in the bureaucratic [00:23:52] landscape of the AI innovation. [00:23:54] That's one of the most greatest things that have come out of building the business [00:23:58] is understanding how to leverage AI to basically help accelerate [00:24:02] the stuff that you don't really have to care about, [00:24:04] you know, [00:24:04] like that's kind of something that's like really a big pain. [00:24:07] So can you tell me a little bit more about like the you said there were [00:24:09] bureaucratic things that they've worked on? [00:24:11] Like, [00:24:11] what are some of those things that like they've helped to automate or like quickly [00:24:16] kind of get out of the way? [00:24:18] It's easier to say what they haven't helped because they helped in paperwork, [00:24:23] in compliance, [00:24:24] in integrations, [00:24:25] in marketing materials, [00:24:27] in sales materials. [00:24:28] We now will soon start leveraging them for calling, [00:24:31] in developments after development and coding, [00:24:34] in creating ads and marketing material. [00:24:38] They're basically all over the place. [00:24:40] Literally every function has been touched by AI in our firm zone. [00:24:45] I thought that's crazy. [00:24:46] That's good. [00:24:47] And honestly, [00:24:47] I think that by the end of this, [00:24:49] you should definitely have a blueprint of like, [00:24:50] here's how to leverage AI to build a climate company. [00:24:53] I think that would be such a such a good, [00:24:55] helpful playbook, [00:24:55] I think for like future founders in the space, [00:24:57] honestly, [00:24:58] unsolicited advice, [00:24:59] probably great content marketing material. [00:25:01] I think the main thing is simply to keep an open mind, [00:25:04] you know, [00:25:04] follow these channels, [00:25:05] like especially like X, [00:25:07] for example, [00:25:08] formerly Twitter, [00:25:09] right? [00:25:09] Like there's a lot of these people who are very on top of reporting latest developments there. [00:25:14] And then they create threads of all the different solutions that have come to [00:25:18] market within the last month or something. [00:25:21] And you can take a look and think about what could apply to your business. [00:25:25] And plus, literally, I think it was one month ago or something, we had DeepSeek come out. [00:25:29] As soon as it came out, I put it on my own personal laptop. [00:25:34] Suddenly you can run these extremely complicated models and build your own [00:25:40] solutions for a fraction of the cost of what you had before. [00:25:44] So this is really honestly just transformative to how business is done. [00:25:50] And the AI will change everything. [00:25:53] It has now become possible to run and create companies that can become really big, [00:25:59] but don't actually need thousands of employees anymore. [00:26:03] Yeah, yeah, agreed. [00:26:04] I mean, [00:26:04] even when I'm doing my research right now in the client tech space, [00:26:07] because there's so many different people I've been interviewing and talking with, [00:26:10] I have so much information to parse through. [00:26:12] But then one day I just sat back and I was like, wait, I should just run this through. [00:26:17] Basically, [00:26:17] I have this platform called Otter AI, [00:26:19] and I've been able to extrapolate so much good data and insights that even I [00:26:24] probably couldn't have identified if I had went through and parsed through the data myself. [00:26:27] So it's like having an extra buddy, and I think it's just super cool just to see [00:26:32] how much time is saved through that process. [00:26:34] It's really, really awesome. [00:26:37] I agree. [00:26:37] And in my perfect world, [00:26:40] the way I see Soldera going is that instead of having a massive amount of people [00:26:45] where every person does a small paper push from one corner to another in the company, [00:26:51] we have a pretty small, [00:26:54] tight team of really top experts. [00:26:56] These are well-made top people who are very open-minded [00:26:59] and can really run and use these tools to the maximum. [00:27:03] And all the things that otherwise would require hundreds of people are just [00:27:07] automated by AI agents. [00:27:09] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. [00:27:11] And I mean, [00:27:11] so obviously, [00:27:12] you know, [00:27:12] this is what helps to construct the foundation of how you run your business and how [00:27:17] you kind of like manage the team on a day to day basis. [00:27:19] But I'm very curious about just the company's like maybe business model and also [00:27:23] just like around around that business model that you have right now. [00:27:26] Do any like you have to navigate it through specific like environmental regulations or policies? [00:27:32] And if so, like what are some of those [00:27:34] things that you have like specific policies that you have to kind of like work with [00:27:38] right now in the current like European landscape or maybe into the future as well. [00:27:44] Well, [00:27:44] in our case, [00:27:45] our solution basically costs precisely as much value we bring to the producer. [00:27:52] So the way it works, [00:27:53] right, [00:27:53] is that we automate entire compliance and then we also help them to monetize and [00:27:59] maximize revenue in the sales of the renewable energy. [00:28:03] And we just get the percentage fee from the sales. [00:28:06] So in effect, the more value we bring, [00:28:09] And the more money they make, the more money we make. [00:28:12] And the bigger they are, the more we get. [00:28:14] So it's like a very fair compensation. [00:28:17] And, you know, that has worked really well for us. [00:28:21] In a nutshell, [00:28:21] we take 10 to 30% of trading fees from our producers, [00:28:25] like depending on their size. [00:28:26] If they're really small rooftop solar, we get 30%. [00:28:30] If a huge production conglomerate, we get 10%. [00:28:33] And that works well. [00:28:34] But in our case, we are in the compliance market. [00:28:37] Like a big part of our solution is compliance automation. [00:28:40] So, [00:28:41] you know, [00:28:42] you're asking like, [00:28:43] how do the environmental regulations and policies affect our business? [00:28:47] Well, it is our business. [00:28:48] Yeah. [00:28:49] So, [00:28:50] so, [00:28:50] so basically in, [00:28:52] in some sense, [00:28:52] the existence of these policies has actually enabled our business. [00:28:58] There is like a big chunk of like private market as well. [00:29:01] Like when we talk about the global IRAC market and so on, [00:29:04] a lot of it is driven by purely private interests and like environmental goals that [00:29:09] the corporates have towards their shareholders. [00:29:12] But at the same time, [00:29:13] like why European guarantee of origin market is the most mature of direct market. [00:29:18] is because of the environmental regulations and policies that are across Europe as well. [00:29:24] The way we see it is that sort of a lot of these environmental problems that are [00:29:29] coming up across EU and the world, [00:29:33] we are looking currently at India and US and UK as well, [00:29:36] for example, [00:29:37] they are often set by some bureaucrat in an office. [00:29:42] They write down some law, how something should happen. [00:29:45] And they don't really think about how people actually and companies and corporate [00:29:50] should actually comply with these regulations. [00:29:53] And they often create like disproportionate amount of unreasonable paperwork. [00:29:57] And the adoption of that paperwork is quite uneven in its effectiveness. [00:30:02] But by us bringing fully automated solution that just does all the work for all the [00:30:07] parties in the system. [00:30:08] So like they can literally forget about what's going on there. [00:30:12] then it doesn't really impact them that much. [00:30:14] And that's one of the biggest values you can bring to the business. [00:30:17] You just remove the headache from them. [00:30:19] You remove the entire compliance part and it's just fully automated. [00:30:23] And that's how we see it. [00:30:24] We're just taking these compliance issues and fully automating them for the [00:30:30] producers of renewable energy. [00:30:32] Yeah. [00:30:32] So just adding on to that, [00:30:33] like that would be the legal standing of each nation where the GOs are being issued. [00:30:40] They would have ratified the sort of European AIB compliance requirements into [00:30:45] their own law and they have their own registries. [00:30:47] So it's a very complex local process that needs to be done. [00:30:50] But I think also something really important to mention is how much [00:30:53] the business is impacted by high-level European regulatory requirements because, [00:30:58] you know, [00:30:58] obviously with Geos being an environmental asset class, [00:31:02] as the price of Geos changes, [00:31:03] you know, [00:31:04] the complete outlook of the business changes quite drastically, [00:31:07] right? [00:31:07] So that's a really interesting thing. [00:31:09] And overall, we're quite bullish on the outlook of guarantees of origin. [00:31:13] So I think that's, yeah, that's another factor to consider. [00:31:17] Yeah, [00:31:18] Oliver had to call a lot these registries lately and talk with them and get the [00:31:24] feeling of the different implementations of the same EU directive in each country. [00:31:29] Yeah. [00:31:30] I saw a great quote on LinkedIn. [00:31:32] It was like, it's a standard instrument, but just like with custom implementations. [00:31:37] Technically, [00:31:37] everybody should be doing roughly the same thing, [00:31:39] but there's just these little niche tweaks that you have to get your head around [00:31:42] with each country. [00:31:43] Yeah. [00:31:44] And, you know, imagine you're a huge multinational energy firm. [00:31:47] You produce in like 15 countries. [00:31:49] Suddenly you need to learn the laws of 15 countries. [00:31:52] It's a lot of overhead. [00:31:53] It's not efficient at all. [00:31:55] It's completely understandable that companies are kind of frustrated and doing the [00:32:00] bare minimum to simply get it done. [00:32:03] And they can benefit from automated tool that just do it for them. [00:32:06] And so they don't need to think about it. [00:32:08] Yeah, [00:32:08] that's actually really so cool to hear that these policies create this very awesome [00:32:13] tailwind for you to kind of like for businesses to come out of it. [00:32:15] So I mean, [00:32:16] as a result, [00:32:16] like policies create economic opportunity, [00:32:18] which is I think something that I think more countries need to kind of like realize [00:32:21] and understand. [00:32:22] Yeah, [00:32:23] like what are some things that you've noticed in Estonia's like climate tech sector [00:32:27] as a result of these different kinds of like [00:32:29] policies, [00:32:30] at least something I've noticed is the fact that like with each entrepreneur I'm [00:32:33] talking with who's working in a different sector of climate, [00:32:36] they always mention a specific policy that helped to drive their business forward. [00:32:40] So yeah, [00:32:41] like what are some things that you might have noticed over time as just from like a [00:32:45] general point of view of the ecosystem? [00:32:47] Like what are some things that you've kind of observed changed in the last couple of years? [00:32:52] Well, [00:32:53] I think one big thing that has changed, [00:32:56] and I agree with it on a personal level a lot, [00:32:59] is that a lot of companies have gotten tired of the level of policies and [00:33:03] regulations affecting them. [00:33:06] And a lot of businesses are actually moving out of EU or their local countries if [00:33:13] the policies are too strong. [00:33:16] So there has especially lately been a very strong wind across Europe that we should [00:33:20] simplify and we should like, [00:33:23] you know, [00:33:24] make sure we're not hurting our own internal competition. [00:33:28] And I mean, you don't only see it in the EU. [00:33:30] The US, [00:33:31] of course, [00:33:31] obviously is going through the same phase with the deregulation with Doge or [00:33:36] Argentina and so on. [00:33:37] So this happens all over the world. [00:33:39] And honestly, [00:33:40] I think it needs to happen because the bureaucratic machine has the tendency to [00:33:45] just sort of grow uncontrollably. [00:33:47] And definitely not everything they've done is good. [00:33:51] So we need to sort of pull back a bit and reassess if everything we actually [00:33:58] decided is good or not. [00:34:00] Even though our business relies a lot on automating the policy, [00:34:04] that's not the only value proposition we have, [00:34:06] right? [00:34:07] we also maximize on the revenue part. [00:34:10] And we are true believers that we shouldn't make our companies suffer and we [00:34:14] shouldn't force too much policy on them. [00:34:18] We should, in fact, help them to be more competitive. [00:34:22] And the policies we are creating should be there to defend and help them to grow [00:34:27] better and protect them from the outside influence, [00:34:31] essentially. [00:34:31] So I do think that a lot of policies, whenever we do make these policies, [00:34:36] we need to make sure it's not hurting our internal market more than the external [00:34:41] market outside of the EU. [00:34:43] And we need to be like protective of our own industries as well. [00:34:47] I think ever since I moved here to Tallinn, [00:34:49] like one thing that I've been so much, [00:34:51] I just got so much more in this like rabbit hole of like, [00:34:53] yeah, [00:34:53] like what does Europe, [00:34:55] the future of Europe's like startup ecosystem in general, [00:34:57] not even just climate tech, [00:34:58] but just like startups in general, [00:34:59] like how, [00:35:00] what does the future kind of look like? [00:35:01] And there's just so many conversations around like, [00:35:04] Is this because of like the new administration in the United States? [00:35:07] Like, [00:35:07] is there an opportunity for Europe to really kind of like create some sort of like [00:35:14] it could be a policy model or it could be just some sort of way to help better [00:35:17] support these companies while still simultaneously [00:35:21] being able to create positive social outcomes by being able to protect people, [00:35:26] by being able to create a social safety net, [00:35:28] but also being able to still keep some of those sustainability standards that [00:35:31] they've done so well in place, [00:35:34] because that in itself creates a buffer [00:35:36] rest of the world because it kind of signals to the rest of the world that hey like [00:35:39] this is something that really still does matter and we're reaching that really [00:35:42] cares about it actually a big reason why like i even like wanted to come to estonia [00:35:45] in the first place was the fact that like yeah like there are they've been able to [00:35:49] remove so many different kinds of like business like regulatory policies over here [00:35:54] and be able to create like you know that digital society but simultaneously it also [00:35:58] still aligns with like sustainability standards so i'm wondering if that kind of [00:36:02] like mindset or like model that they've created can be applied to the rest of Europe as well. [00:36:09] And I think that's a great example because the Estonia government is a massive [00:36:14] support for businesses. [00:36:16] You know, you can open a company online in like a few minutes. [00:36:19] You can access like every single government service online. [00:36:22] You never need to visit any like government offices. [00:36:25] These are the good types of policies. [00:36:27] These are the supportive ones. [00:36:29] And these are really like, how can we help our companies strive and move forward faster? [00:36:34] And I think this is also like great inspiration we can bring to the rest of the Europe as well. [00:36:40] Yeah, I agree with you. [00:36:41] Is it worth mentioning the specifics of grants that were received by Sodera? [00:36:46] There are a few from, was it EU climate or energy particular grants? [00:36:51] Yeah, there's a couple of good grants. [00:36:53] Like we were part of Green Accelerator. [00:36:55] We were part of Energy Beam, of the Beamline Foundation. [00:36:59] And these grants are always very nice if they happen. [00:37:04] But I am a strong believer that every business... [00:37:06] should be able to drive without grants and grants should be there as only like an [00:37:11] accelerator and help drive even faster, [00:37:14] essentially. [00:37:15] So I think that's a very important part when building up these grants. [00:37:20] I will say, I think Beamline is doing a good job. [00:37:22] I had an early start this morning. [00:37:24] I joined at Beamline, go-to-market strategy consultation, and I found it really valuable. [00:37:30] And I think if that's the kind of stuff that's being offered to startups in Estonia, [00:37:33] then I think, [00:37:34] yeah, [00:37:34] that's definitely a model that should be replicated elsewhere. [00:37:37] I'm curious, it was all like energy companies, so that specific batch is about energy. [00:37:42] Do you think there's a disproportionate amount of energy startups in Estonia or in Tardu, [00:37:46] or was that just this batch is like an energy-focused one? [00:37:49] This particular grant and batches focuses on energy. [00:37:53] There's like other sectors as well. [00:37:55] There's many different types of grant schemes going on. [00:37:58] Yeah, [00:37:58] I think the Green Accelerator right now also does, [00:38:00] I think they're launching one soon about forest and biodiversity. [00:38:03] There's one focused on that. [00:38:05] And I think there's also another one focused in on like, [00:38:07] I think it was circular economy as well. [00:38:10] There's multiple different avenues. [00:38:11] And I think they're starting to not just focus, [00:38:14] at least from my own observations, [00:38:16] I saw that a lot of like Accelerator programs kind of started off as like, [00:38:19] quote unquote, [00:38:20] deep tech, [00:38:20] but deep tech not just doesn't encompass just climate, [00:38:23] it also encompasses like, [00:38:24] you know, [00:38:24] health and biotech and [00:38:26] Many of like really hard, like hardware based solutions. [00:38:30] But then I think now I'm starting to see like they've kind of split off into very [00:38:34] more granular topic areas. [00:38:37] And that's kind of as a result of the fact that there were more climate tech [00:38:41] startups being developed in the country. [00:38:42] And the fact that if you want to create a very successful outcome for your clients, [00:38:47] essentially, [00:38:48] you want to be able to create very tailored programs. [00:38:51] for the specific companies. [00:38:52] So yeah, it's not just, I think it's not even just clean energy now. [00:38:55] It's also like there's, you know, the other accelerators that I mentioned as well. [00:38:59] Yeah, [00:39:00] I think one last thing I kind of wanted to ask you, [00:39:02] though, [00:39:02] just like wanted to cover ground is like, [00:39:03] you know, [00:39:04] like we've kind of covered like the EU, [00:39:05] Estonia as well. [00:39:06] And they're both, you know, there's obviously areas for improvement. [00:39:09] But I'm just very curious, [00:39:10] like in the context of Estonia itself, [00:39:13] you know, [00:39:13] there's a lot of support mechanisms, [00:39:15] a lot of grants, [00:39:16] a lot of consultation programs. [00:39:17] But in your opinion, [00:39:18] like what is something that Estonia could be doing to kind of improve the way that [00:39:23] we can build new climate companies in the country? [00:39:27] Or what are some ways that they can better support current existing client companies? [00:39:31] I think Estonia has a great reputation of being a startup ecosystem and a good tax system. [00:39:39] I think they shouldn't do the tax changes they're planning to do. [00:39:43] Because a lot of that reputation is starting to give back dividends. [00:39:46] And we want to give this perspective of stability, that this is how it is here. [00:39:51] Just let the reputation building keep going and doing itself. [00:39:55] I mean, I've traveled the world in Dubai, US, Brazil. [00:39:59] It doesn't matter. [00:40:00] Everybody knows about Estonia. [00:40:02] It's a great place to do business. [00:40:05] I know a lot of founders and investors who are considering moving their funds and [00:40:09] companies to Estonia. [00:40:10] We shouldn't ruin that. [00:40:11] We should just keep doing what we've been doing and let the system sort of take care of itself. [00:40:17] So I think it's not even like climate specific, [00:40:20] but actually like in general, [00:40:22] Estonian ecosystem, [00:40:23] just let it drive. [00:40:25] Don't put too much effort into trying to bring changes. [00:40:30] And I mean, of course, there are small things that can be improved here and there. [00:40:33] But in general, [00:40:34] Estonia has put a lot of effort into building this ecosystem and just keep watering [00:40:41] it and let it keep on growing. [00:40:42] It's pretty simple. [00:40:43] Yeah, [00:40:44] I think the marketing around or the narratives were created by the government [00:40:49] around Estonian business opportunities has been very prominent. [00:40:52] So like, [00:40:53] I mean, [00:40:54] even when I first landed in Tallinn, [00:40:55] like I was walking out, [00:40:56] I just saw all these different like posters kind of just about kind of [00:41:00] heavily hinting at that and I think the more that I talk with like these different [00:41:04] kinds of companies the more I realize like oh my goodness like this is a real thing [00:41:07] and we should really really kind of dive into the fact that this is such a huge [00:41:11] selling point for the country while simultaneously also noting that yeah like [00:41:15] we can do business in a very impactful way here. [00:41:19] And you can build really game-changing, [00:41:21] industry-defining companies that can also help to change the world and help to [00:41:25] protect our planet as well simultaneously. [00:41:26] And I think that is something that I think maybe E-Estonia or the Enterprise [00:41:32] Estonia division can also look into is knowing that you can actually have the best [00:41:36] of both worlds by knowing that we can create really impactful policies while [00:41:39] simultaneously also protecting our businesses. [00:41:41] And, you know, just encourage people to take risks. [00:41:44] I think it's a cultural thing, [00:41:45] you know, [00:41:46] more risk-taking, [00:41:47] more entrepreneurship, [00:41:49] more international attention. [00:41:52] That's all we need. [00:41:53] But I think on that point, [00:41:55] you know, [00:41:55] I think people need to understand that for a lot of people looking inwards to Estonia, [00:41:59] moving a business to Estonia or moving a fund to Estonia or relocating to Estonia [00:42:02] is a risk, [00:42:03] right? [00:42:03] So for them, at least at a high level. [00:42:06] So Stemper, would you be in favor of something like... [00:42:09] golden visa scenario like an investor visa where like if you make that effort you [00:42:13] might get an ability to integrate into Estonian society more like a residency or [00:42:20] something I don't I don't think that's currently possible but I'm curious about [00:42:22] what your thoughts on that would be [00:42:23] Yeah, it's a good question. [00:42:25] I haven't thought about that. [00:42:26] But I mean, [00:42:26] you can already get the residence and start the company without ever coming to Estonia. [00:42:30] So that's pretty nice, right? [00:42:32] And like you can sort of start testing the waters and see if you like it pretty easy. [00:42:36] There's a bunch of online services that specialize on these types of companies like [00:42:41] Solo and make it super easy and take care of all your accounting and bookkeeping. [00:42:45] And I actually don't know what Estonian stance on Golden Visa programs are. [00:42:49] I mean, I'm always supportive in those. [00:42:51] Like it sounds like a no brainer to me. [00:42:54] I will say, [00:42:54] I do think that, [00:42:55] I mean, [00:42:56] yeah, [00:42:56] so they obviously have the digital residency program. [00:42:58] So that's really prominent here that we often talk about. [00:43:00] But I think something that, [00:43:01] or this is something that I would think that would be even better, [00:43:04] I think, [00:43:04] for the ecosystem. [00:43:05] Like there are a good amount of like, [00:43:06] you know, [00:43:07] tech events being hosted around like Tallinn as well. [00:43:10] But I think that when back when I was in Asaf, like it was every single... [00:43:13] like day every single day there was always some major event around the city that [00:43:17] you can go to and it's for free it's like for open it's like and i think that in [00:43:21] itself was why asaf was such a prominent tech hub not because like i mean obviously [00:43:26] they're doing really awesome work but it's like the fact that i'm also here in [00:43:29] estonia i'm like everyone's doing also really awesome work here but i think that [00:43:32] community building aspect is [00:43:35] could be something that would take the country to the next level. [00:43:37] Not even just like, [00:43:38] oh, [00:43:38] among like, [00:43:39] you know, [00:43:39] Estonian founders, [00:43:40] but just inviting people from outside of the country to come visit and to kind of [00:43:44] just see like all the different opportunities being offered here. [00:43:47] Yeah, [00:43:47] once you get that exposure and you like, [00:43:49] you know, [00:43:49] find a community of like really awesome people, [00:43:51] it's like, [00:43:51] I would say it's kind of like you're trapped in a way. [00:43:53] Mentally, [00:43:54] you're like trapped in because you're like, [00:43:55] wow, [00:43:55] like there's just a lot of awesome things here. [00:43:57] And I know that whenever I leave Estonia this coming July, [00:44:00] like it's something that's always going to be a part of me in terms of like, [00:44:03] OK, [00:44:03] like this is something that's always going to be on top of my mind in some shape. [00:44:06] But, you know, most of these events in SF are driven by private people. [00:44:10] So, [00:44:10] Kevin, [00:44:11] you have the honor and opportunity to start your own event series here there in Tallinn. [00:44:17] yeah that's true i'm already talking with some people actually thinking about it as [00:44:21] well at least from the university level trying to see you as well so yeah i think [00:44:25] more a little bit more of that would be really awesome to look into all right guys [00:44:28] it's been a cool conversation and thank you so much kevin for coming here and [00:44:34] asking the questions and sharing your experience and thank you ollie for giving [00:44:37] your insights we'll see you guys soon yeah nice thanks kevin yeah thank you all [00:44:42] this is super awesome